SAIC @ Shanghai Auto Show

ZTsteve wrote:The headlight on that Roewe 750 Hybrid edition has a lot of lenses! At least four, where I think my ZT has only two. What's going on there?

Took a bit of thought, but I'm guessing they are LED headlamp bulbs instead of HID or whatevery you have. LEDs use significantly less power but struggle to produce enough light for a headlamp - hence having more than one lamp.

patpending wrote:
The bonnet of this fuel cell car appears to be festooned with an anagram of X-Power. Who owns the brand now? William Riley?

Well spotted, time for a change of colour on the XPower Forums then

Interesting that although you can see very little of the MG6 in this photo, it has a very distinctive shape to it:

Does anyone know if there are any pictures of the MG6 Interior flying around?
Doc

gambini saw this in Spain and thinks this probably is it (post 13, p2).

The more I look at it, the more I think it is definitely a saloon with an MG badge on the steering wheel, so could well be the MG6. I much prefer the interior on the 550 Sport myself!

patpending wrote:

mckenzie1971 wrote:what about inside what does it look like is it sporty any one got any pics of inside

gambini posted this on mg-rover.org - "same as 550" = "disappointing".

Windy wrote:

patpending wrote:
The bonnet of this fuel cell car appears to be festooned with an anagram of X-Power. Who owns the brand now? William Riley?

Well spotted, time for a change of colour on the XPower Forums then

how do you do that? (sees pretty button) I want a Polo Harlequin myself...

That has not been done as well as this Zebra which is on show at the Shanghai Show:

Windy wrote:That has not been done as well as this Zebra which is on show at the Shanghai Show:

so are we saying that an X-Power alternative car measures output not in horses, but in zebras?

If SAIC are showing off 90 models today - and presuming that's not the ones in the stealth clothes or with the knees - what are they?

• N1
  
• 550 Sport
  
• Hybrid 750
  
• Shanghai X-Power
  
• MG6
  
• MG3SW
  
• MG TF?
  
• MG7?
  

does that leave 82 Volkswagens?

patpending wrote:

Windy wrote:That has not been done as well as this Zebra which is on show at the Shanghai Show:

so are we saying that an X-Power alternative car measures output not in horses, but in zebras?

If SAIC are showing off 90 models today - and presuming that's not the ones in the stealth clothes or with the knees - what are they?

• N1
  
• 550 Sport
  
• Hybrid 750
  
• Shanghai X-Power
  
• MG6
  
• MG3SW
  
• MG TF?
  
• MG7?
  

does that leave 82 Volkswagens?

I was wondering this too? What else was actually at Shanghai? It can't have all been about the Roewe N1, MG6 and SAIC Fuel Cell. Was the range of cars that they produce there? I.E MG3SW, MG7?
Doc

docjunior2008 wrote:What else was actually at Shanghai? It can't have all been about the Roewe N1, MG6 and SAIC Fuel Cell. Was the range of cars that they produce there? I.E MG3SW, MG7?
Doc

SAIC is bigger than just MG and Roewe, it had all these at the show:




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37.


Now where are all the trucks, tractors etc...

Maybe we also need to count these models?

Windy wrote:Maybe we also need to count these models?

I had expected that reaction and phrased my question accordingly...

... not the ones in the stealth clothes or with the knees...

We may joke about the camoflage models, but it's clearly deliberate.
[quote="patpending"]

docjunior2008 wrote:Looking around, the MG6 reminds me of Audis and Mazdas - both the "more sporting premium" face of another brand (Volkswagen and Ford)...

Austin?

The LE500 is not available in Green... the most successful colour for the RV8...hope there will be a Racing Green MG6...

And a very popular colour for MG in Spain too.
Just spotted this too:

Both the MG6 and the Roewe N1 are based on the Roewe 550 platform, itself a shortened version of the Rover 75 mechanical base.

As suspected, both originating in the RDX60 program. A slightly shortened 75 = a Roewe 550 and an MG6 (i.e. based on the 550), and the N1 uses an even shorter platform based on the 550 which is what the main RDX60 was to be.

Both the MG6 and the Roewe N1 are based on the Roewe 550 platform, itself a shortened version of the Rover 75 mechanical base.

I don't believe that is accurate, it seems more likely that the N1 is ZS derived, though probably sharing some parts with the 550.

Then it'll be called the Roewe 450/MG5! My money's still on 350/MG5 given the mentions made of the names and the fact it's basically one of the Shanghai MGR RDX60-derived designs.

The MG dancers: http://v.blog.sohu.com/u/vw/2597712

(You may want to turn the noise down a bit!)

Windy wrote:The MG dancers: http://v.blog.sohu.com/u/vw/2597712

(You may want to turn the noise down a bit!)

to me, it's very like something out of the Muppets - or maybe the Firedance from Labyrinth.

It's an MG7 - why not seven dancers to S Club Seven?...

Is the swoosh under "Name Lord" (MG) in the background "Let your heart beat faster"?

This article is about the whole motor show and, as far as SAIC is concerned, mentions only the Buick Business Concept MPV, not MG or Roewe. Interestingly enough, the original describes makes such as Geely as "brands" but Volkswagen as a "manufacturer". I reversed that for the sake of truth.



SHANGHAI MOTOR SHOW by Auto, Motor + Sport 23/04/2009 (translated by patpending over three hours, please credit me/link back here if you want to copy this) (the photos weren't in the original so are subject to change) (I was keeping to the original so didn't link to CCT)






The German manufacturers will not be at the Tokyo Motor Show. However, they’ll not be missing out on the 13th Shanghai Motor Show (20^th-28^th April). Not surprising: the Chinese market is getting more and more important and competition is hotting up.

The figures seem to recall the good old days we thought were lost for ever: Volkswagen up 6%, Mercedes up 23% and GM up 16.8%. Nevertheless, these are not sales figures from the past; they are from now, in the most important future market in the world: even in the first quarter of this year, China grew again year-on-year. Matthias Wissmann, president of German manufacturers’ association VDA, even speaks of “the first green shoots of recovery for the difficult year 2009” in the Middle Kingdom.

No surprise that the German manufacturers have come out in force at the 13^th Shanghai Motor Show, which has increased its exhibition area by 20% and is expecting 45 companies from Germany alone on its 1.8 million square feet. Porsche is even celebrating a world-wide premiere with its new Panamera, and BMW’s 760 Li is targeted at China’s popular chauffeur-driven market, as is Mercedes’ facelifted S-Class. Audi’s CEO, Rupert Stadler, who has long since declared China the “second most important domestic market” after Germany, is exhibiting the re-worked Q7, which, visually, has been considerably updated and, technically, now comes with more-efficient 6-, 8- and 12-cylinder TDI engines with 240, 340 and 500bhp. The choice of petrol engines is between a 3.6-litre FSI and a 4.2-litre V8.






Audi Q7 (www.worldcarfans.com)

After Detroit and New York it could sound as though the Germans were set to dominate a show yet again, and yet the Chinese market moves to a different beat. The local manufacturers are by no means as prepared to let the Germans steal their thunder as the stricken US groups were. In fact, the Chinese are, rather, showing increasing confidence.

Geely (meaning “auspicious, advantageous car”) started out in 1986 making refrigerator parts, and has been making cars in Zhejiang province since 1998. They are showing no fewer than 22 new models and prototypes in Shanghai, including the eye-catching copy of the Rolls-Royce Phantom, dubbed Englon GE. In common with other Chinese manufacturers, however, this brand is showing it is open to environmental issues: also on display is the IG, an electric three-seater with a solar-panel roof.



Englon GE (www.wisecarshopper.com)



Geely IG (www.pro-zev.com)

Pininfarina’s celebrated Rotring* [*my take on the concept. I do not infer that Pininfarina really uses a Rotring. Maybe it’s a Ball Pentel with a thin tip.] has penned models by manufacturer JAC. JAC dominates the Chinese MPV market and has its own design office in Italy. A new compact MPV by the name of BMPV is on JAC’s stand, powered by a 1.8 litre petrol engine.




JAC BMPV (www.autohome.com.cn)

CCT Gallery

Chery had become universally-known as a putative joint venture partner for Chrysler, potentially delivering a small-car platform to the ailing US manufacturer. In Shanghai, Chery is further building on its reputation as a specialist for cars for first-time drivers. Its M1 is a small car with the looks of the Nissan Micra, which does some 47mpg in the petrol version and comes with a four-year guarantee.




Chery M1 (www.edmunds.com)

The Chinese island of Hainan is home to Haima, a manufacturer which was once in a joint venture with Mazda and has adopted the Japanese company’s platforms as a result. Haima’s Freema is a successor to the old Premacy; its S3 is its first SUV. In addition, there is a small car with a one litre engine. Hainan is also pushing environmentally-friendly technology and is presenting two electric cars.

BYD - meaning “Build Your Tradition” - takes the old basis of the Lexus RX and builds its own SUV on it with a completely new body. The S6* will get 2- and 2.4-litre engines, and later these will be joined by a 3-litre V6 developed by BYD.


BYD M6 (image.automk.com)


*NB this car is clearly labelled M6, not S6, and Ash says there were only M6 and E6 at Shanghai...

A special development for the Chinese market is the Citroën C4 saloon which is taking shape there in co-operation with Dongfeng - in a dedicated Chinese design studio under the leadership of Frenchman Oleg Son. The degree of effort being put into this new model is testimony to the importance the French manufacturers are putting on the Chinese market.





Citroën C4 saloon (worldcarfans,com)

The same goes for General Motors, which is exhibiting a new people-carrier study bearing the Buick badge which aims to demonstrate Buick’s global design language for MPVs. The concept car has been developed in China together with SAIC. The 6-seater is 5.28 metres long. Its rear sliding doors make it easier to get into the rear seats; it does without a B-pillar and sports a large panoramic sunroof. The interior, with its luxury wood veneer and carpet-like mats, has been specifically aimed at Chinese taste; the generous space is designed for holding small meetings on the road.




Buick BMPV (cn.autoblog.com) (gallery at http://cn.autoblog.com/gallery/shanghai-2009-buick-mpv-concept/1503317/

Volkswagen is one of the leading brands in the Middle Kingdom and has been delivering what the Chinese want for some time. In Shanghai, CEO Martin Winterkorn will unveil not only the Chinese-market version of the Golf VI but also the Passat Lingyu, which, with its abundance of chrome, is also tailored to Chinese tastes. Its 1.8-litre now has 163bhp instead of 150 but delivers 15% better fuel economy.




VW Passat Lingyu (2.bp.blogspot.com)

So fuel consumption goes down while sales figures climb - surely a trend for other markets to follow.

(Authors: Birgit Priemer, Xia Dong (Beijing)).

patpending wrote:the re-worked Q7, which, visually, has been considerably updated and, technically, now comes with more-efficient 6-, 8- and 12-cylinder TDI engines with 240, 340 and 500bhp. The choice of petrol engines is between a 3.6-litre FSI and a 4.2-litre V8.

I was wondering just how much "more-efficient" a 12 cylinder diesel engine could be, so I looked up the details:

http://www.audi-sport.net/index/txt.php?a=1118

That document has just about every figure you could possibly want, except for the two that I wanted - mpg and power to weight ratio. A torque figure of 1000Nm sounds impressive but the Germans seem to be treating green issues even less well than the Americans! Strangely their marketing seems to work as I found an enthusiastic article on it in the "Green Car Centre" on Yahoo: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/16012008/62/500bhp-audi-r8-v12-tdi-diesel-concept-0.html

So how many MPG does it achieve? Looks to be under 20 and I think my MG-Rover K-Series engine has a better power to weight ratio!

Windy wrote:...I was wondering just how much "more-efficient" a 12 cylinder diesel engine could be...

well, it's German. You can sense the author's disappointment that the Shanghai Motor Show wasn't dominated by the Germans!

Jalopnik also thinks under 20mpg...

While we were playing with Audi's smaller V8-powered diesel Q7
(thanks to the folks at Honeywell), it looks like the multi-ringed
brand was working on taking the rocket-powered powerhouse of an SUV to
a whole new oil-burning level with the new Audi Q7 V12 TDI. With the
new bigger, longer and more uncut diesel engine under the hood it
officially makes the new Q7 the most powerful diesel-powered passenger
vehicle around. That big 6.0-liter engine generates a whopping 500 HP
and (wait for it) an astonishing 757.5 lb-ft of torque. That
means the new Q7 has a 0 to 100 km/h (62.14 mph) time of just 5.5
seconds. On average, it requires just 11.9 liters of fuel per 100 km —
a figure translating to roughly 19.77 MPG. Do want. Oh yes, definitely do want. Presales of the Audi Q7 V12 TDI
will begin in Germany during the second half of 2008 and we're of the
assumption people will be calling it a 2009 model. Full details below
the jump.

Or if using British gallons. 23.74 mpg

Which I guess isn't too bad, but if your prepared to waste fuel at that rate why have a big heavy cast iron diesel? Surely you want a lightweight sporty aluminium engine like the MG engines. Power to weight ratio is what determines acceleration.

Windy wrote:Or if using British gallons. 23.74 mpg

I believed him, too! I just didn't want to divide 282.5 by 11.5! Actually I suppose 20 British mpg must be about 14.15l/100km...

Which I guess isn't too bad, but if your prepared to waste fuel at that rate why have a big heavy cast iron diesel? Surely you want a lightweight sporty aluminium engine like the MG engines. Power to weight ratio is what determines acceleration.

and why have such a huge diesel in a big, heavy car? I can't for the life of me "get" what is supposed to be green about a huge, heavy, shed-sized max-5-seater SUV (400h) which happens to be hybrid...

patpending wrote:I jusy didn't want to divide 282.5 by 11.5!

I did it the easy way and typed "11.9 l/100km = ? mpg" into the Google search engine - thanks Google

...and I worked out that "divide 282.5 by the number" out using algebra, as well!

Windy wrote:Or if using British gallons. 23.74 mpg

Which I guess isn't too bad, but if your prepared to waste fuel at that rate why have a big heavy cast iron diesel? Surely you want a lightweight sporty aluminium engine like the MG engines. Power to weight ratio is what determines acceleration.

Will the NSE's be light-weight Aluminium too?
Edit: just read about hints of a US MG return. Maybe the NSE is compatable with US sales?

Windy wrote:

patpending wrote:the re-worked Q7, which, visually, has been considerably updated and, technically, now comes with more-efficient 6-, 8- and 12-cylinder TDI engines with 240, 340 and 500bhp. The choice of petrol engines is between a 3.6-litre FSI and a 4.2-litre V8.

I was wondering just how much "more-efficient" a 12 cylinder diesel engine could be, so I looked up the details:

http://www.audi-sport.net/index/txt.php?a=1118

That document has just about every figure you could possibly want, except for the two that I wanted - mpg and power to weight ratio. A torque figure of 1000Nm sounds impressive but the Germans seem to be treating green issues even less well than the Americans! Strangely their marketing seems to work as I found an enthusiastic article on it in the "Green Car Centre" on Yahoo: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/16012008/62/500bhp-audi-r8-v12-tdi-diesel-concept-0.html

So how many MPG does it achieve? Looks to be under 20 and I think my MG-Rover K-Series engine has a better power to weight ratio!

Clarkson has just road-tested one:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article6342920.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2

That’s because this is the first road car ever to be fitted with a V12 diesel.
It produces 493 horsepowers — more than any other diesel — and 738 torques.
That’s about 160 more than you get from a McLaren SLR: 738 torques is enough
to restart a dead planet.

NB Are these torques Nms?

patpending wrote:NB Are these torques Nms?

The thing is more than twice the weight of your ZS180 but has no room for the dogs!


No, they are not Nm torques, it has 1000 of them.

If you had read the second page then you may have seen "Torque 738 lb ft @ 1750rpm" - though why they are using American torques for a German car I don't know, they should have used Kgm!

Of course at only 1750rpm those torques don't have much power in them but are still capable of stripping the teeth off the gears, which is part of the reason it's so heavy - you need some hefty cogs in the gear box. I guess the handling is not too good.

Windy wrote:

patpending wrote:NB Are these torques Nms?

The thing is more than twice the weight of your ZS180 but has no room for the dogs!


No, they are not Nm torques, it has 1000 of them.

If you had read the second page then you may have seen "Torque 738 lb ft @ 1750rpm" - though why they are using American torques for a German car I don't know, they should have used Kgm!

Of course at only 1750rpm those torques don't have much power in them but are still capable of stripping the teeth off the gears, which is part of the reason it's so heavy - you need some hefty cogs in the gear box. I guess the handling is not too good.

It does seem silly having such a big car with so little space inside it. If Clarkson likes the engine, it must be dodgy...

I've just read an interview in auto, motor + sport with Rupert Stadler, boss of Audi.

(picture from http://www.zerauto.nl/ )



Interestingly enough even Clarkson conceded that it is not really clear what the point of the Q7 is. THe magazine also asked if there would be a sucessor. (Apparently it's based on the Porsche Cayenne* - or a garden shed, not sure I've got the translation right - though you'd fit many more people and far more stuff into a garden shed, so it can't be that - and so doesn't fit with Audi's new modular strategy).

* MInd you, that sounds better than "based on the Volkswagen Toerag".

Rupes says there will definitely be a successor model to the Q7, (maybe a seven-seater?) as it is doing very well...